Dmitri Laskaris is an accomplished interviewer and Matthew Hoh a knowledgeable ex military guest. In the video, Laskaris set up an ongoing debate between Mersheimer and Doctorow with Col Doug MacGregor as third participant as follows.
Doctorow believes the US controls the Israeli’s and that the US admin is fighting a proxy war in the ME to regain imperial hegemony after humiliating defeats in Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine and to avenge itself against adversaries. This analysis is seconded by Finkelstein, Chomsky, and others. Mersheimer believes roughly the opposite, that Israel controls the US President and Congress through legalized bribery. MacGregor on the other hand believe the US is rudderless, reacting chaotically to events. This is a hard and useful framing of an important debate among the pundits I follow.
Having posed the two sides of the debate, Laskaris said he was on the Doctorow/Finkelstein/Chomsky side. But Hoh finds all 3 sides valid, and adds it’s in part a “chicken v egg” issue. Hoh brings up the change in the 1990s when the neocons took over foreign policy with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the Ziocons, Perl, Wolfowitz, etc. Hoh says Cheney wanted ME wars because they were good for Halliburton and the MIC, Rumsfeld wanted wars to assert US Imperial dominance, and the Zios wanted wars for Israel. Hoh went on to say it was never the case that money was always and only the key, or that ideology always/only the key, or that any one factor was ever dominant. Hoh ad libbed an analogy of a family going to a restaurant. The husband likes the pasta, the wife the desserts, the kids the prizes, the teenage son the waitresses ass.
Also, Hoh described the errand boys of empire like current “US ME negotiators” Hockstein (an IDF soldier and dual citizen) and McGurk as people who are hired only by approval of the Israel lobby, their MIC bonifides, and elite resumes. Equally important, the US system is corrupt to the core with many interests paying for access and power. The pharm industry controls medicine, Big Ag controls farm policy, the MIC controls the defense budget, Wall Street controls finance and the economy.. and Israel controls US Mideast policy. So.. it’s not one or the other of the three arguments above, its all of them combined in a gigantic, deadly shitfest.
I began agreeing with Doctorow, and ended agreeing with Hoh that a jumble of motives and causal factors is the best explanation for the danger we’re all in.
There is the “Israel First”, the “Empire at all Costs”, and the ones that just go for the money.
We can ignore the third group because they don’t matter in deciding what happens as long as they make money.
The IF people are Jewish neocons (the originals) which are really reformed Trotskyists. They convinced the EAAC that the best way to cement US hegemony is by controlling the Middle East, and to do that, secure Israel, and to do that, destabilize their enemies in the region.
The money people were on board because they get the oil and sell more arms. No matter how the wars turn out - they make money, and then fund more lobbying to continue the grift.
The EAAC were duped and the Jewish zio neocons are the ones in charge. Thing is, once the EAAC people were committed to an action they can’t back out because it makes the US look weak and they have no choice but to keep going.
In other words, the Ziocons are the ones in charge and their allegiance is to Israel.
At some point the EAAC might take over but it’ll be too late and by that time (if we’re not already there) the empire will be gone forever.
It’s peculiar that no one has even commented, let alone favorably, to your post.
The discussion here (around Mearsheimer, Doctorow, Chomsky, Hoh etc) is itself a combination of fossilization and distraction from the “bright thread in the skein” which is impossible to miss, yet smoothly ignored. This is the first sign of how shallow or co-opted the discussion here has become.
The same bright thread is ubiquitous in the foreground of major conflicts in the west, to a lesser (as financiers and catalysts for currency debasement) or greater degree (as open protagonists in the twentieth century et seq). Their role as parasitical agents propelling the financial ruination of empires began under Nero in 64 AD — and, as they say, the rest is history, including the despoliation of the US dollar we are witnessing today. Of course, they were, and are, the “necessary but insufficient” condition for societal collapse.
The corrosion of dominant cultural norms is enabled by the control of currency, capital and financial system — this is the bright thread that professors and others with cyclopean vision cannot see or ignore. The information is freely available (see the eight part series on YouTube by peacedozer) and discussed and debated in depth by Ron Unz together with his featured writers and readers at his eponymous and uncensored website.
I feel that this discourse is, peculiarly among so many highly intelligent people usually able to evaluate and consider nuance, quite unhelpfully black and white. Because there is some evidence that does not entirely support one theory, they suggest the complete opposite must be true. If some in the US structure of power do see Israel as a tool to be used for their agendas, this means that Israel is purely a puppet with no meaningful influence over the US; if Israel is able to influence the US to accommodate its agenda, this means that the US is a hapless passenger. Is it really so difficult to imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle?
As Professor Doctorow concedes in his post, Col. Lawrence Wilkerson appears to be the only one among these commenters to recognise the nuance, that both arguments are partially true. Israel does exert huge influence upon the US, and does ‘use’ the US for its own ends, but there are many coldly calculating neocons within the US structure of power who are only too happy to allow and encourage this, who view Israel as a useful tool in enacting their own agendas even if they believe it may be destroyed in the process. There are also those who do not wish to do as Israel wishes but are indeed being forced by political pressures and other factors, and there are foolish ideologues motivated by religious fervour.
I believe if Professor Doctorow had framed his thesis in these more nuanced and less absolutist terms, then other commenters like Professor Mearsheimer would likely not have so quickly dismissed them. Indeed, it would also mesh with Larry Johnson’s argument that the US structure of power is fractured and disorganised, which I believe is true.
"He who controls Central Asia controls the world".
Hmmm. Controlling Central Asia is one thing. Staying in control of it is quite another. Alexander the Great couldn't, the Mongols couldn't, Tamerlane couldn't, and as for the British...
A hint to the Yanks: aircraft carriers won't help much.
Yes, I realise that. Although, like Mahan's, I find his views quite 19th century. But, alert as I am to "chronological provincialism" and anachronism, I think that this kind of theory is fairly timeless.
Regardless of who is top dog, USUK & Israel karma are enmeshed. Good effing luck to those of us who just want to get along & not steal & murder or be robbed & murdered.
Doctorow's take has considerable merit. Israel is ultimately disposable for the US. They have the Gulf kleptocracies firmly controlled and dependent, as well as Jordan and Egypt. The things that make Israel useful can be transferred or distributed.
Re: Mackinder. If this thesis were valid, wouldn't the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union have controlled the world, as they had effective control over the "Heartland"? I don't remember them doing so.
Re: Doctorow. Arguing that Israel is a catspaw for the US isn't very convincing. Is this an effort to reinforce the idea of Jews as victims rather than victimizers?
Hi Julian! I understand your dilemma, although I have a firm opinion on the how and why of the Outlaw US Empire Boss to Zionist Agent relationship as I recently wrote that drew on 150+ year's worth of historical expertise from those I count as mentors and teachers along with my own research. https://karlof1.substack.com/p/the-outlaw-us-empire-always-the-boss
The relationship is very similar to that between the Empire and the UK with the latter acting as agent for the Mob Boss Outlaw.
Larry, a Rottweiler has a much greater qualification: before they get up to go into action or whether it's worth barking at all, they first assess the situation. Unlike crazy little "crime ministers" who use hyperactive Malinois who are afraid of bee stings and fire crackers. Larry, it's "Shaam time" now. Show-time is over. A true Rottweiler earns respect by his / her demeanor alone. And only if that didn't work would Shaam have jumped far over the pool and would create facts. Yes, and the Uki thing is now just a sad story. That too has been clear since 22.02.22. Just as it was clear that the usually lethargic Israeli does not understand what is happening in his name.
You have these wonderful Akitas in Japan. I'm sure they are perfect for you too. Akitas, like Rotties, have a very even temperament if you are gentle and patient with them in their first year but being consistent with them. Rotties have brought me back to reality after being in too many conflict zones just to take photos of misery. It is the honesty of animals that reminds us of our responsibility for other lives.
There is the “Israel First”, the “Empire at all Costs”, and the ones that just go for the money.
We can ignore the third group because they don’t matter in deciding what happens as long as they make money.
The IF people are Jewish neocons (the originals) which are really reformed Trotskyists. They convinced the EAAC that the best way to cement US hegemony is by controlling the Middle East, and to do that, secure Israel, and to do that, destabilize their enemies in the region.
The money people were on board because they get the oil and sell more arms. No matter how the wars turn out - they make money, and then fund more lobbying to continue the grift.
The EAAC were duped and the Jewish zio neocons are the ones in charge. Thing is, once the EAAC people were committed to an action they can’t back out because it makes the US look weak and they have no choice but to keep going.
In other words, the Ziocons are the ones in charge and their allegiance is to Israel.
At some point the EAAC might take over but it’ll be too late and by that time (if we’re not already there) the empire will be gone forever.
It’s easy to blame Israel for waging Americas tail. Very proud Americans viewpoint in light of such horrible trouble they are in now.
Pride before the catastrophic fall.
Weep for what has been lost I’m afraid .
This violent American Hegemon mindset has destroyed other countries only now to destroy itself is a good lesson about the violent idiots running this drama.
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Actually, I feel sorry for your cats..... No, seriously, if you could get back to me......
When deciding which view is correct it’s important to weigh the amount of evidence on each side.
But here’s one very simple test: If Israel didn’t exist or existed in total alignement with the U.S. but peacefully in the region, who would that benefit more, Israel or the U.S.?
Said differently, has Israel’s behavior in the last 30 years, helped or hurt US influence in the region? Have all the ME U.S. wars in the last 30 years helped or hurt the U.S.? Has it helped Israel?
The answer is Israel and U.S. wars have hurt the U.S. in every which way and helped Israel by destabilizing its enemies in the region.
I haven’t even gotten into the espionage and the active measures with which the Israelis have taken advantage and used American intelligence and resources for their financial and military gain.
Doctorow is either ignorant, misguided, or a shill because it can’t be more clear who is actually controlling who.
The Doctorow v Mersheimer argument is best addressed in a video by Dmitri Lascaris interviewing Matthew Hoh starting at 31 minutes.
https://youtu.be/61lEPnxwG_0?si=YI2Z8tHumtkuA7Mq&t=1911
Dmitri Laskaris is an accomplished interviewer and Matthew Hoh a knowledgeable ex military guest. In the video, Laskaris set up an ongoing debate between Mersheimer and Doctorow with Col Doug MacGregor as third participant as follows.
Doctorow believes the US controls the Israeli’s and that the US admin is fighting a proxy war in the ME to regain imperial hegemony after humiliating defeats in Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine and to avenge itself against adversaries. This analysis is seconded by Finkelstein, Chomsky, and others. Mersheimer believes roughly the opposite, that Israel controls the US President and Congress through legalized bribery. MacGregor on the other hand believe the US is rudderless, reacting chaotically to events. This is a hard and useful framing of an important debate among the pundits I follow.
Having posed the two sides of the debate, Laskaris said he was on the Doctorow/Finkelstein/Chomsky side. But Hoh finds all 3 sides valid, and adds it’s in part a “chicken v egg” issue. Hoh brings up the change in the 1990s when the neocons took over foreign policy with Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the Ziocons, Perl, Wolfowitz, etc. Hoh says Cheney wanted ME wars because they were good for Halliburton and the MIC, Rumsfeld wanted wars to assert US Imperial dominance, and the Zios wanted wars for Israel. Hoh went on to say it was never the case that money was always and only the key, or that ideology always/only the key, or that any one factor was ever dominant. Hoh ad libbed an analogy of a family going to a restaurant. The husband likes the pasta, the wife the desserts, the kids the prizes, the teenage son the waitresses ass.
Also, Hoh described the errand boys of empire like current “US ME negotiators” Hockstein (an IDF soldier and dual citizen) and McGurk as people who are hired only by approval of the Israel lobby, their MIC bonifides, and elite resumes. Equally important, the US system is corrupt to the core with many interests paying for access and power. The pharm industry controls medicine, Big Ag controls farm policy, the MIC controls the defense budget, Wall Street controls finance and the economy.. and Israel controls US Mideast policy. So.. it’s not one or the other of the three arguments above, its all of them combined in a gigantic, deadly shitfest.
I began agreeing with Doctorow, and ended agreeing with Hoh that a jumble of motives and causal factors is the best explanation for the danger we’re all in.
I agree with this up to a point.
There is the “Israel First”, the “Empire at all Costs”, and the ones that just go for the money.
We can ignore the third group because they don’t matter in deciding what happens as long as they make money.
The IF people are Jewish neocons (the originals) which are really reformed Trotskyists. They convinced the EAAC that the best way to cement US hegemony is by controlling the Middle East, and to do that, secure Israel, and to do that, destabilize their enemies in the region.
(Remember Wesley Clark https://youtu.be/SXS3vW47mOE?si=eoIy3-uUrbFR8V4w)
The money people were on board because they get the oil and sell more arms. No matter how the wars turn out - they make money, and then fund more lobbying to continue the grift.
The EAAC were duped and the Jewish zio neocons are the ones in charge. Thing is, once the EAAC people were committed to an action they can’t back out because it makes the US look weak and they have no choice but to keep going.
In other words, the Ziocons are the ones in charge and their allegiance is to Israel.
At some point the EAAC might take over but it’ll be too late and by that time (if we’re not already there) the empire will be gone forever.
It’s peculiar that no one has even commented, let alone favorably, to your post.
The discussion here (around Mearsheimer, Doctorow, Chomsky, Hoh etc) is itself a combination of fossilization and distraction from the “bright thread in the skein” which is impossible to miss, yet smoothly ignored. This is the first sign of how shallow or co-opted the discussion here has become.
The same bright thread is ubiquitous in the foreground of major conflicts in the west, to a lesser (as financiers and catalysts for currency debasement) or greater degree (as open protagonists in the twentieth century et seq). Their role as parasitical agents propelling the financial ruination of empires began under Nero in 64 AD — and, as they say, the rest is history, including the despoliation of the US dollar we are witnessing today. Of course, they were, and are, the “necessary but insufficient” condition for societal collapse.
The corrosion of dominant cultural norms is enabled by the control of currency, capital and financial system — this is the bright thread that professors and others with cyclopean vision cannot see or ignore. The information is freely available (see the eight part series on YouTube by peacedozer) and discussed and debated in depth by Ron Unz together with his featured writers and readers at his eponymous and uncensored website.
Good comment. I agree about the skein that is missed.
I feel that this discourse is, peculiarly among so many highly intelligent people usually able to evaluate and consider nuance, quite unhelpfully black and white. Because there is some evidence that does not entirely support one theory, they suggest the complete opposite must be true. If some in the US structure of power do see Israel as a tool to be used for their agendas, this means that Israel is purely a puppet with no meaningful influence over the US; if Israel is able to influence the US to accommodate its agenda, this means that the US is a hapless passenger. Is it really so difficult to imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle?
As Professor Doctorow concedes in his post, Col. Lawrence Wilkerson appears to be the only one among these commenters to recognise the nuance, that both arguments are partially true. Israel does exert huge influence upon the US, and does ‘use’ the US for its own ends, but there are many coldly calculating neocons within the US structure of power who are only too happy to allow and encourage this, who view Israel as a useful tool in enacting their own agendas even if they believe it may be destroyed in the process. There are also those who do not wish to do as Israel wishes but are indeed being forced by political pressures and other factors, and there are foolish ideologues motivated by religious fervour.
I believe if Professor Doctorow had framed his thesis in these more nuanced and less absolutist terms, then other commenters like Professor Mearsheimer would likely not have so quickly dismissed them. Indeed, it would also mesh with Larry Johnson’s argument that the US structure of power is fractured and disorganised, which I believe is true.
"He who controls Central Asia controls the world".
Hmmm. Controlling Central Asia is one thing. Staying in control of it is quite another. Alexander the Great couldn't, the Mongols couldn't, Tamerlane couldn't, and as for the British...
A hint to the Yanks: aircraft carriers won't help much.
Well, Mackinder was 1904.....
Yes, I realise that. Although, like Mahan's, I find his views quite 19th century. But, alert as I am to "chronological provincialism" and anachronism, I think that this kind of theory is fairly timeless.
Regardless of who is top dog, USUK & Israel karma are enmeshed. Good effing luck to those of us who just want to get along & not steal & murder or be robbed & murdered.
Doctorow's take has considerable merit. Israel is ultimately disposable for the US. They have the Gulf kleptocracies firmly controlled and dependent, as well as Jordan and Egypt. The things that make Israel useful can be transferred or distributed.
It is interesting that Michael Hudson and Richard Wolff both agree with Dr. Doctorow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXDz1PdMWao
Michael Hudson mentions that he sat in on some of the proxy-war strategy session with Herman Kahn.
Re: Mackinder. If this thesis were valid, wouldn't the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union have controlled the world, as they had effective control over the "Heartland"? I don't remember them doing so.
Re: Doctorow. Arguing that Israel is a catspaw for the US isn't very convincing. Is this an effort to reinforce the idea of Jews as victims rather than victimizers?
They never tried. They had all of the Heartland they could handle.
Hi Julian! I understand your dilemma, although I have a firm opinion on the how and why of the Outlaw US Empire Boss to Zionist Agent relationship as I recently wrote that drew on 150+ year's worth of historical expertise from those I count as mentors and teachers along with my own research. https://karlof1.substack.com/p/the-outlaw-us-empire-always-the-boss
The relationship is very similar to that between the Empire and the UK with the latter acting as agent for the Mob Boss Outlaw.
Larry, a Rottweiler has a much greater qualification: before they get up to go into action or whether it's worth barking at all, they first assess the situation. Unlike crazy little "crime ministers" who use hyperactive Malinois who are afraid of bee stings and fire crackers. Larry, it's "Shaam time" now. Show-time is over. A true Rottweiler earns respect by his / her demeanor alone. And only if that didn't work would Shaam have jumped far over the pool and would create facts. Yes, and the Uki thing is now just a sad story. That too has been clear since 22.02.22. Just as it was clear that the usually lethargic Israeli does not understand what is happening in his name.
https://www.theofruendt.com/lil-shaam.html
Love Rotties!
You have these wonderful Akitas in Japan. I'm sure they are perfect for you too. Akitas, like Rotties, have a very even temperament if you are gentle and patient with them in their first year but being consistent with them. Rotties have brought me back to reality after being in too many conflict zones just to take photos of misery. It is the honesty of animals that reminds us of our responsibility for other lives.
Akitas can be aggressive with other dogs . Lots of dogs can be. Rotties, boxers, and so.
As you so you need to be gentle and patient.--and consistent. It is not about domination with these dogs but love. IMO
I saw you’re not the youngster as you appear on the photo, so there is a lot of “old-ages” wisdom… Yes, it’s true Akitas are also the same category.
I agree with this up to a point.
There is the “Israel First”, the “Empire at all Costs”, and the ones that just go for the money.
We can ignore the third group because they don’t matter in deciding what happens as long as they make money.
The IF people are Jewish neocons (the originals) which are really reformed Trotskyists. They convinced the EAAC that the best way to cement US hegemony is by controlling the Middle East, and to do that, secure Israel, and to do that, destabilize their enemies in the region.
(Remember Wesley Clark https://youtu.be/SXS3vW47mOE?si=eoIy3-uUrbFR8V4w)
The money people were on board because they get the oil and sell more arms. No matter how the wars turn out - they make money, and then fund more lobbying to continue the grift.
The EAAC were duped and the Jewish zio neocons are the ones in charge. Thing is, once the EAAC people were committed to an action they can’t back out because it makes the US look weak and they have no choice but to keep going.
In other words, the Ziocons are the ones in charge and their allegiance is to Israel.
At some point the EAAC might take over but it’ll be too late and by that time (if we’re not already there) the empire will be gone forever.
It’s easy to blame Israel for waging Americas tail. Very proud Americans viewpoint in light of such horrible trouble they are in now.
Pride before the catastrophic fall.
Weep for what has been lost I’m afraid .
This violent American Hegemon mindset has destroyed other countries only now to destroy itself is a good lesson about the violent idiots running this drama.
I’m with Gilbert.
Hi, I tried to upgrade to paid but....... The following came up:
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Actually, I feel sorry for your cats..... No, seriously, if you could get back to me......
When deciding which view is correct it’s important to weigh the amount of evidence on each side.
But here’s one very simple test: If Israel didn’t exist or existed in total alignement with the U.S. but peacefully in the region, who would that benefit more, Israel or the U.S.?
Said differently, has Israel’s behavior in the last 30 years, helped or hurt US influence in the region? Have all the ME U.S. wars in the last 30 years helped or hurt the U.S.? Has it helped Israel?
The answer is Israel and U.S. wars have hurt the U.S. in every which way and helped Israel by destabilizing its enemies in the region.
I haven’t even gotten into the espionage and the active measures with which the Israelis have taken advantage and used American intelligence and resources for their financial and military gain.
Doctorow is either ignorant, misguided, or a shill because it can’t be more clear who is actually controlling who.